Ouch Talk Show #85 April 2012
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Rob Fraser and Liz Carr 

Liz	The Ouch team are back with an hour of refreshing disability talk channelled straight from your digital device right into your brain. With me is my new co-host, Rob Crossan, to tell you what we’re doing. Welcome aboard, Rob. 	
ROB	Thank you. Mr co-host to you young lady. Coming up on this show we’re looking at the golden age of your disabled childhood. We’ll be meeting Lazylegz from the ILL-Ability’s hip-hop dance group. There’s music for people with interesting features and we’ll be introducing you to Boccia, the little known Paralympic sport which gets the least coverage. 	
liz	To end we’ll be discussing whether disability on television has finally come of age with disabled TV producers, Kate Monaghan and Kevin Mulhern.	
ROB	So don’t adjust your set. 
[Jingle: From London it’s Ouch disability talk from the BBC with Liz Carr and Rob Crossan.]	
liz	So, Rob, welcome aboard.	
ROB	Thank you. It’s a little nervous to be stepping aboard such a mighty vessel. 	
liz	I know. It’s quite bizarre to be talking to somebody with both their arms. I’m worried that you might tickle me during the middle of the show. 	
ROB	So much tactile distress.	
liz	Look I know that, you know, over the years we’ve had you as the newshound and the fall guy on many occasions. 	
ROB	I’ve been your ritual punching bag really haven’t I?	
Liz	You have. And you began with no knowledge really of disability. You’ve got a bit of knowledge.	
ROB	That has stayed the same. There’s been no progression there...	
liz	But to ease you in...	
ROB	... whatsoever. 	
liz	I brought something of interest that has nothing to do with disability...	
ROB	Oh brilliant. 	
liz	... so I thought you’d be good. 	
ROB	Yeah, yeah, yeah this is my whole area. 	
liz	So here we go. So research shows that fewer than one in ten of today’s children have played in a wild place compared to half of their parent’s generation. So what’s happened is the National Trust have come up with a list of 50 ‘must do’ things that you should apparently tick off your list by the time you reach eleven and three quarters. So I’m just wondering...	
ROB	Just let me have a look at the list then.	
liz	Yeah. What have we got on the list? 	
ROB	We’ve got number ten play conkers. Yeah, okay. 13 make a mud pie. Oh I like number two roll down a really big hill. That’s absolutely ideal. 	
LIZ	Watch the sun wake up. 	
ROB	That sounds a bit dull. This looks like...all 50 of these are basically plot lines for an Enid Blyton novel. There’s very little in here which strikes me...	
liz	Eat apples straight from the tree.	
ROB	...as part of the 21st... Number 49 find the geoca--...what’s a geocache?	
liz	A geocache it’s like using a GPS using like a satnav it’s finding little bits of treasure. 	
ROB	Like a 	
liz	It’s a modern treasure hunt. 	
ROB	I see right. Okay so something that is of this century then?	
liz	Yes absolutely. 	
ROB	Fine, okay. 	
liz	We put it out on Facebook and on Twitter to find out what our listeners thought and...	
ROB	Yeah I’m just looking at these. What have they come up with? 	
liz	We had some really, really good stuff. People saying, I can’t do some of those things because they’re inaccessible to me. But a lot of people saying like Claire E Pie,  climbing a tree may be physically impossible but maybe you’ve just got to get creative. 	
ROB	What chop down the tree?	
liz	That’s very good. The experience of feeling bark. Watching others and treehouses and I’ve heard about these, treehouses with lifts.	
ROB	What? An accessible treehouse?	
liz	Yes. There’s one in England definitely, at least one, but they do exist. 	
ROB	I hope that there’s a flunky in the elevator asking you which floor as a multi-storey treehouse. Actually this reminded me because Damon, our producer, told me that when he was a kid he built a den that was so good a tramp moved in and they have to remove...	
liz	Now that’s impressive. 	
ROB	...remove said tramp. Well building dens is the highlight, any child who hasn’t built a den it doesn’t matter how disabled you are, you have to try...even if it’s just in your spare room and it’s just a sheet over some chairs, you’ve got to build a den somehow. 	
liz	So look you’ve got a bit of dodgy eyesight that’s your thing isn’t it?	
rob	Yeah. 	
liz	So did that affect your ability to do some of these outdoors rough and tumble things? 	
rob	Well no I was really lucky because my Mum and Dad just let me figure out for myself what I could and couldn’t do which, when I think about it now, they must have been incredibly distressed every time I went out because, you know, we had this sort of communal bike and no-one can remember who it belonged to, and we called it the BMX of doom because it had no brakes and no saddle, and we’d just kind of share it between us all. And I remember, you know, going down country lanes in Cheshire in the middle of the night after having had a few cheeky ciders at the age of 14 and just thinking I can’t believe I didn’t die. I mean I did cycle it into a few hedgerows, but I’d come back bleeding and bruised and my Mum and Dad would say, “Well you know you can’t do that then can’t you?” So yeah it was actually really good. But I would participate in everything but I was usually spectacularly awful at it. I would always be the most inept, but it was the taking part that counts. And what about you? 	
liz	I was...well I had before and after because I became disabled at seven so I did a lot of those things that are on the list. I was very much an outdoors girl and then I became disabled and things did change. And it’s funny I was thinking one of the big changes is that I couldn’t sit or do anything on the floor. Because a lot of these, like making a daisy chain you’ve got to get the daisies. Or if you want to roll on a hill you’ve got to get out your chair and roll. And so quite a lot of the things on the list do involve quite a lot of ability, so I’m quite into...	
rob	Just getting someone to push you out of your chair and kick you down a hill, I mean I can do that now, if you want? 	
liz	That has been done. That has been done to me. 	
rob	I don’t know why I’m laughing. Obviously I don’t agree with kicking Liz Carr out of her wheelchair, listeners, but secretly she might enjoy it. 	
liz	But look we’ve got somebody on the line I’d like to speak to. We’ve got 11 year old Adam Webster from Cardiff down the line. Hello Adam. 	
adam	Hello. 	
ROB	Hello Adam. 	
adam	Hi. 	
rob	So tell me there’s a huge list here of ‘must do’ outdoor things for kids. I’m going to just read you a couple of them and you can tell me if you’ve done any of them or not. So have you ever skimmed a stone?	
adam	Er, no. 	
rob	Have you ever run around in the rain? 	
adam	No. 	
liz	Can I just check, Adam you use a power chair is that right?	
adam	Yeah I probably drove around in rain.	
rob	Drove around well that’s close enough. 	
liz	Yeah that’s fine. 	
rob	Fine. Eating blackberries growing in the wild? You could get poisoned couldn’t you if you do that? 	
adam	Hm-mm. 	
ROB	Yeah. So I don’t think that’s a good idea. 	
liz	Have you ever hunted for fossils and bones? 	
adam	No not really. 	
liz	But do you want to? 	
adam	I don’t mind. I used to be obsessed with dinosaurs so...	
liz	Ah so maybe you did.	
ROB	That’s the thing is because usually when you dig in England you don’t...you’re unlikely to find dinosaur bones aren’t you, to be honest. 	
adam	Yeah. 	
rob	The last time I dug for something I found...well I was digging for my cat actually and I found a - what did I find - yeah it was a chocolate wrapper and a can of Lucozade. That’s what I found in my garden the last time I digged.	
liz	So what do you do in your spare time then Adam? 	
adam	I play onmy PlayStation. 	
liz	Okay. 	
adam	On my laptop. 	
rob	Yes. 	
adam	Watch TV. 	
liz	What are you playing on the PlayStation, what kind of things do you play sporty things or fighting things?	
adam	I like fighting things. 	
liz	Huh-ha. 	
adam	Yeah. 	
ROB	And what about outdoor stuff then when you go outdoors when you’re not on the laptop or the computer or the telly then what do you like to do? 	
adam	I don’t mind shopping as long as it’s shopping for stuff I like. 	
liz	And you go swimming. 	
adam	Yeah I go swimming. 	
liz	As an 11 year old would you want to make mud pies and eat blackberries wild in the country? 	
adam	I don’t want to eat blackberries because I don’t eat fruit or vegetable. 	
liz	So you wouldn’t anyway. Absolutely I think that’s perfect. There’s a lot that people can do aren’t there? I saw one and it was having the wind in your hair. If you're a power chair user you're going to get that when you go on fast aren’t you? 	
rob	Yeah you just accelerate. 	
adam	Yeah. 	
liz	And one of the things you do in your spare time you’re involved in something called Whizz Kids.	
adam	Yeah it’s a club where we get together with other disabled children and we just talk about social skills and sometimes we play games and we play Boccia. 	
rob	Ah now this is a Boccia themed show. We’ve got much more Boccia coming up a little bit later on. But yeah are you good at Boccia yourself then, Adam? 	
adam	I’m okay. 	
rob	Yeah you’re okay, all right. 	
liz	Adam, thank you for giving us an insight into what a young person thinks about this. Would we be able to talk to your Mum now? 	
adam	Yeah. 	
liz	I believe your Mum’s there, Kerry. 	
kerry	Hello. 	
rob	Hello! Hello Kerry.	
kerry	Hi. 	
ROB	How are you? 	
kerry	I’m fine thank you. 	
rob	I’ve just had a bit of a confession I don’t know if you were listening into that but I wasn’t aware that Adam doesn’t eat any fruit and veg whatsoever. 	
kerry	Yes. 	
rob	That’s a disability waiting to happen. 	
kerry	It’s been a long running thing. 	
liz	You’re probably very proud of him for saying that. 	
kerry	Oh yes. 	
liz	Oh yes. 	
rob	Did he do the thing of trying to hide the veg underneath the fish fingers or hide the veg under the plate, or bury it in his pockets like I used to do? 	
kerry	We hide it in pasta sauce and he has it in fruit juice drinks. That’s how we get around it.	
ROB	Ah veges in disguise yeah. 	
liz	No look do you think that Adam gets the opportunity to do as many activities as you’d want him to do? 	
kerry	No. And we’ve sort of gradually gone into this sedentary lifestyle and I think part of that is because getting out and about can be so difficult you just get faced with so many barriers. So I think in the end you do what you can do and that’s what you become 	
rob	To be honest I wasn’t really sensing the misery and disappointment in Adam’s voice when he replied...	
kerry	No, not at all. 	
rob	...that he wasn’t able to skim a stone, it didn’t sound like he really cared. So I think this list if maybe a little bit outdated. 	
kerry	He’s never had the opportunity so he never knows what that feels like, you know, it’s only the things... We have been camping once and we need access to electricity so we have to be very careful in what sort of sites. And we could only manage two nights and then we had to come back. 	
liz	And the electricity presumably that was to power his electric chair?	
kerry	It was for my eldest son because he uses a ventilator at night. 	
rob	And handy for the PlayStation as well? So we’ve already established that camping isn’t really an option so if you are to have a family day out, what kind of out are we talking where would you actually go? 	
kerry 	Cinema. 	
rob	That’s not out, Kerry, that’s fundamentally in unless it’s a drive-in, and then you’re in your car. 	
liz	Kerry, have the boys ever been in the countryside? 	
ROB	Do they know what a tree is? 	
kerry	No, well no. No. It’s about the pavements and the pathways and even little steps create huge problems for us. So you have some experiences and then you don’t bother again. 	
ROB	It’s true the majority of the great outdoors is annoyingly  unaccessible isn’t it? 	
kerry	Completely. 	
ROB	You would find this Liz I guess as well?	
liz	Yeah totally. 	
kerry	Even pavements and just getting around sort of local area which doesn’t involve any sort of outdoor type activities, I mean they don’t go out by themselves they have to be with an adult because the power chairs, they’re so reliant on the power chairs and the power chairs are so big that if they stop or get stuck or they can’t manoeuvre them then they need an adult to help them out. 	
liz	What do you think could be on that list for disabled people? 	
kerry	It’s really hard because I think a lot of activities that you would expect them to do appear to be limited, but actually with a bit of thought they can be included. Like if they put Boccia as part of the PE sessions or outside play sessions that other children could join in then it would become more accessible and desirable. And you know maybe that’s something that they should think about is making sure that there’s lots of different things that people can do. They’ve got an outdoor gym at their school but there’s nothing that Adam can get on there, although they’ve just provided a ramp so that he can get his chair on the field which is quite nice. 	
rob	We’ve got a few responses from when we put this question out on Facebook and Twitter and there does seem to be the ability to adapt I think. There’s one Twitter message from OCYours who says wheelchair races down hospital corridors is a must do, which I think sounds...	
kerry	That sounds good. 	
rob	...actually that sounds brilliant. And what else have we got? 	
liz	I liked one of them, a number of people said them, was having somebody that had the same condition as you, that would have been a great thing to meet someone. 	
rob	Would you have liked that then Liz?	
liz	I think I probably would have. I didn’t meet somebody like me until I was about 19. And then when I did it totally changed my life so...	
rob	Wow! Okay. 	
liz	Yeah. 	
rob	Because I don’t think I would have liked that at all if there was another albino at my school. 	
liz	Really? 	
rob	No I would have thought he was stealing my thunder, you know, I wouldn’t have felt so special. 	
liz	Sarah Ishmale, Christine Wilde, they all said it would be great if their children or if they could have met somebody with the same conditions. 	
rob	Well that’s really fascinating talking to you, Kerry, I wish you luck with getting Adam to eat vegetables. 	
kerry	Thank you very much. 	
rob	I suspect it’s a losing battle, but good luck. And thank you so much...	
liz	Thank you for joining us. 	
rob	...and thank you to Adam as well. 	
kerry	Okay. Thank you very much. Bye. 	
liz	It’s of course Paralympic year we heard thereAdam is playing Boccia but, you know, what are young people doing? We’ve got Tony with us. Tony Garrett, hello? 	
tony	Good afternoon. 	
rob	Yes and Tony I haven’t got a calendar with me and so go on I’m sure you know, how many days is it now? How long? 	
tony	How long. May the 21st sees 100 days to the start of the Paralympics. 	
liz	And are disabled children being encouraged to do sport this year and get active?	
tony	I think there’s a lot more happening. I mean certainly I was at the Paralympic swimming trials up in Sheffield just a couple of weeks ago, and as I was coming into the arena there was a mum rushing through as well and she said, “Oh I’ve come to see my daughter swim.” And I said, “Great, we must have a chat.” And her daughter was only just turned 10, nearly 11 but you know really young, and she said she’s already off on swimming competitions and she’s already looking for 2016 Paralympics in Rio so I think certainly they’re getting the youngsters really young. And there’s going to be quite a few youngsters in both the swimming and the athletics squads. Ellie Simmons was 13 when she won gold back in Beijing and there’s a couple of other 12/13 year olds. So I think it’s progressed a lot. 	
rob	The next generation they’re coming aren’t they. The National Trust kick started their 50 things project on April 21st and have lots of activities available all round the country. You can find out more by looking at our blog which is bbc.co.uk/ouch.
[Jingle: Ouch talking disability. I had years of viewing my walk as I walk badly then I realised no this is the best I can walk, this is the best. And it really changed the way I felt and I kind of felt proud of myself and the way I did things and I went they’re not bad they’re the way I do it. bbc.co.uk/ouch. Back to Liz Carr and the new fella.]	
ROB	What is with this jingle? Is that just in case I’m not up to the job so you can easily replace it in a couple of months’ time. On the line from Montreal we have Luca Patuelli, part of the ILL-Abilities break-dance crew, hello Luca. 	
luca	Hey, what’s up Rob? Hey Liz, how you guys doing? 	
liz	Hi, great to have you on the line. 	
rob	We’re … thank you. You’re also known as Lazylegz why is this?	
luca	Yes that’s my B-boy name, B-boy Lazylegz, and it’s because...	
liz	What does B-boy mean, I’m a bit old?	
luca	B-boy means break-boy or Bronx-boy, it stands for...it’s just kind of a name to say what a break-dancer is. 	
rob	And Lazylegz because your legs don’t work very well?	
luca	Because I’ve got two lazy legs exactly. 	
ROB	Right, okay. Are they lazy or actually asleep?	
luca	Well they’re lazy, you know, they’ll work when they have to work, you know. 	
liz	You're going to be performing some shows in England very soon, so we want to talk to you about that. 	
ROB	And can you tell us what ILL-Abilities is? I know you’re a break-dance crew who are all disabled, what kind of things will you actually see? If we go and see you and pay good money at Sadler’s Wells what kind of show are you going to put on for us? 	
luca	Well ILL-Abilities is an international break-dance crew comprising of differently able dancers. The whole concept behind ILL-Abilities is the fact that each dancer in ILL-Abilities, prior to joining the crew, had made an international statement with their dance. They’re all internationally recognised dancers. 	
liz	So they all had a name in their own right? 	
luca	Absolutely. 	
ROB	So this is kind of a super group right?	
luca	It’s kind of like exactly a super group. And it has actually nothing to do with the disability, like they got known for being amazing dancers through competing on an international level just their knowledge and creating certain moves and all that type of stuff. And the whole concept behind ILL-Abilities is to really be able to come together as this super crew kind of like the idea of like the X-Men and we want to be able to show the world that anything is possible.	
ROB	I am liking comparisons with X-Men, that’s superb. And so listen to this, Lazylegz, I’m just going to read I’m just going to read out a little bit of the press release we received when we first started hearing about you guys. And so it says, ‘ILL-Abilities ™ is an international group comprising of B-boys that have overcome extraordinary challenges to become some of the best dancers in the world, from Canada, Chile, Holland and the USA.’ And here’s the bit I like the best ‘ILL-Abilities’ mission is to redefine society’s view of disability, promote empowerment and encourage limitless possibilities through motivational entertainment.’ So that’s one heck of a task you’ve set yourself. How’s that going so far?	
luca	I think it’s going well, you know what I mean? The one thing I think that’s amazing about ILL-Abilities, the individual crew members, is that I think just being ourselves we’re kind of promoting a positive environment around us and we’re showing people that we’re not disabled we don’t have any differences that, at the end of the day, anything is possible as long as we put our minds to it. And we encourage that through teaching dance to youth, of all different ages, all different abilities with just staying positive and just giving I guess motivational feedback to people that might be in the need of some motivation at the time. 	
liz	So is that where the slogan that I saw, I watched a clip of you and I know it’s all over your website etc ‘No limits, no excuses’.	
luca	Exactly. No excuses no limits. The whole concept behind that is that in life anything is possible as long as we don’t create any excuses along the way. The minute you create that excuse and you say you can’t do something without even trying that’s where you’re really limiting yourself. 	
ROB	That sounds quite tough love. 	
luca	Well you know what I mean if you want to go out and get something you’ve got to go out and get it yourself. And there’s obvious like barriers to some...like some people face certain barriers, but the majority of the time the barriers are within the mind. And I believe that there’s a way to do anything you want, you just have to find a way and you have to stay positive and you say okay I’m going to do this but I’m going to do it my own way. It might not be the correct way or it might not be the way that everyone else is doing it, but if I can do it my own way and I can believe that I’m doing it the right way for myself then from thereon I can build more confidence and I can...	
liz	Luca?	
luca	Yes.	
liz	When it’s kind of like reading the press release and hearing you now it’s great stuff and I’m thinking you know and seeing the work that you do, do you think ever though if that’s your intention and that’s what you want, do you think sometimes audiences will still watch you and go, “Oh aren’t they amazing, bless them”? 	
luca	I mean obviously we’re going to get both types of feedback, you know what I mean? And at the same time it’s like we don’t want any easy props and we don’t want to like win for pity, we want to win or we want to win the audiences reactions because what we’re doing is amazing despite our disabilities, you know what I mean? And I think no matter what though there is that sensitivity aspect where the people that might - I don’t want to have to say, use the word saying feel sorry for us - but like we might touch a chord with certain people and then after watching us they realise okay well these guys touched me in a certain way and what they’ve been able to accomplish despite their disabilities is amazing. 	
liz	For our listeners who aren’t aware of you tell us about how you dance then? Can you describe it some of the moves that you make as a crew? 	
luca	So myself as B-boy Lazylegz I was born with a disability called Arthrogryposis and I have very little muscles in my legs, so I don’t have the strength to hold myself up and walk without crutches. I need to use crutches to walk and I’ve learned to create my own dance style with my crutches. I’ve always had a stronger upper body so most of my moves are comprised of strength movements. Any any moves that I do on the ground with my hands like any floating like spinning moves I actually use my crutches as an extension of my arms and I do the same moves standing up on the crutches. So I float a lot, I do a lot of spins, handstands, flips off my crutches. 
We have Checho, he’s from Chile, he’s actually a thalidomide case he was born a major malformation in his legs. His feet pretty much come up to his knees so he’s very short but his upper body is just as a regular person’s. And Checho is able to create by floating style and as a child instead of like walking he would always actually walk on his hands and he was always doing handstands. So he’s extremely flexible and all his moves are based on his gigantic arms basically. 	
rob	And this is all to a soundtrack of hip-hop?	
luca	Yeah exactly. This is all through hip-hop dance, funk, old school, but I mean at the end of the day we’re also creating shows that are, I would say, closer to modern dance as well as hip-hop and breaking. We have another dancer whose name is Kujo. He was born completely deaf. He’s completely deaf on one ear and about 50% deaf on the other ear. And what’s amazing about him is that he can’t really hear the music so he created his own dance style. He created his own movement to kind of compensate for the fact that he couldn’t hear the music. And the way he dances to the beat is by watching the audience bobbing their head or clapping to the beat. 	
rob	Oh because usually I thought they went barefoot and just did it off the vibrations but he has his own system based on reaction from audience?	
luca	Exactly. And I mean if the vibrations of the base is loud enough he can feel it but he doesn’t want to rely on that because often like when you’re moving up in the air and like you’re flying around you can’t really feel those vibrations. So by watching the audience and he’s able to get those counts and just like saying, okay so they’re bobbing their heads so it’s one, two you know what I mean? And that’s how he does his choreographies.  	
liz	So, Luca, as I say I use a wheelchair to get me on the floor would take half an hour, it wouldn’t be something I’d be comfortable but I could I break-dance, for example, would there be moves I could do? 	
luca	Absolutely. I, personally in Montreal, I specialise in teaching integrated dance for kids with disabilities. I have a total of 22 students all with completely different disabilities, or we can call them ill-abilities from now on. And...	
rob	Let’s do that. 	
luca	And I have a couple of my students who are wheelchair bound who have difficulty getting out of their wheelchair so what we do is we create a foundation from whatever movements they can do within their chair and from there we try to build on that. So it’s like I have a couple of girls that are in my class who have the strength to actually hold themselves up in their chairs, so they unbuckle their seatbelt they put their hands on the armrests and they pull themselves up, and then they just kind of shake their hips you know. 	
rob	So ill-abilities which is what you prefer to use as a name, are we saying...	
liz	Is that bad?	
rob	...is this as in Beastie Boys like Licensed to Ill as in that’s really good? That’s the whole point of it, right?	
luca	The whole concept behind ILL-Abilities is take the word disability out the dictionary and replace it with ill. Ill which really means sick, in the hip-hop world what’s bad is good, so when you see something and you like it you go, “Oh that’s ill” exactly like how you said in the Beastie Boys Licensed to Ill, like when you, you go, “That’s sick” you know. 	
rob	But what about if you’re dissing someone then disability kind of sounds all right isn’t it if you’re dissing prejudices? 	
liz	Diss disability. 	
rob	Yeah. 	
liz	Oh man! 	
luca	Exactly. 	
rob	It works on so many levels. I’ve missed my calling quite clearly. You can watch out for Luca and his crew at the Breaking Convention Show on the 5th May at Sadler’s Wells in London. They’ll then be in Plymouth and Birmingham as far as we’re aware the performance is due to be live streamed, we’ll update that when we know a little bit more. Go to our blog bbc.co.uk/ouch.	
liz	Luca, it’s been an absolute pleasure.	
luca	It’s been a great pleasure. Are you guys planning on coming and checking out the show? 	
liz	We hope we can be there, absolutely. 	
rob	I’ll be getting Liz on for a cameo role. 	
liz	I’ll be showing you some of my moves. 	
luca	Awesome. I can teach you the moonwalk in the wheelchair. It’s just a backwards moonwalk. 	
rob	And Liz is blushing she’s been referred to as a kid. 	
liz	I’m so thrilled. 	
ROB	[whispers] She was 40 last week.	
liz	Sshh, sshh. 	
luca	Happy birthday. 	
liz	Thank you very much, Luca, you’re a gent unlike my co-host. Take care. 	
luca	Thank you very much, have a great week. 	
rob	What a nice chap. 	
liz	Bye bye. 	
luca 	Thank you, bye bye. 
[Jingle: If you’re looking for info about this show you can find it in the show notes there’s links to things we mention, gossip and more. It’s all on our blog which you can find via bbc.co.uk/ouch that’s bbc.co.uk/ouch.]
[Jingle: Back to Liz Carr and Rob Crossan.]	
rob	Tony Garrett is back with us in the studio again. Hello Tony. 	
tony 	Hi there. 	
liz	Now last month we spoke about Ross and Kylie from the GB wheelchair rugby squad. Listeners might remember we were bit surprised that there were both men and women playing in the team, a bit of a surprise there. We spoke to them ahead of the test event in the Olympic Park, Tony, how did it go? 	
tony	The test event was a really good event. I mean there was four teams; Australia, Canada, Great Britain and Sweden and it was a really good opportunity to test the facilities out which is the whole reason for LOCOG wasn’t it and obviously from a sporting perspective is to see really where the British team are at. And really good sort of three days of competition and Great Britain did really well because they have been struggling, they’ve got quite a few new players as we heard last month, and Kylie being one of them. And Great Britain got off to a really good start, they beat Sweden, Canada and then Australia in the round robin so that meant they finished up playing Australia again in the final but then that’s where Australia got their big guns out and gave our team a bit of a thrashing. 	
ROB	Go on give us the score? 	
tony	It was a win by 30 points, sort of 74/30. So it was good progress. I mean Kylie and Ross, who we had on last month, I mean Ross had been out injured so it was really important for him to be back. And Kylie really played well, she got a lot of court time. So although the final game was disappointing overall from a British perspective very encouraging, lots of youngsters had come through, the team gelled well and I think, you know it’s going to be a tough tournament for the wheelchair rugby team but they’re very much in there fighting for a medal. 	
rob	In football speak it’s something to work on in training. 	
tony	Correct. 	
rob	And also in the last month there was a swimming event in Sheffield followed by a bit of an upset with one of the hopefuls who hasn’t got a place in the squad...	
tony	Absolutely. 	
Rob	Can you tell us about that, Tony? 	
tony	Absolutely, Rob. Last time out it was the final chance for the British Paralympic swimmers to qualify for the London 2012 games. Lots of them did, lots of youngsters coming through did, but the big surprise omission was Dave Roberts, Paralympic champion, had equalled Tanni Grey-Thompson’s record at the previous games, has been out for a bit, to be honest, and this was his last chance and really he didn’t look up to speed, you know, he wasn’t even close unfortunately. Big shock, you know has been injured but he didn’t look fit. And it just goes to prove one key thing if you’re not at your best in Paralympic sport, like any other top sports, you’re not going to make it, they’re not going to take any passengers to the games. 	
liz	Well let’s look at the now, this coming month, there’s a test event for a perhaps little known Paralympic sport called boccia. Never heard of it? Well it’s a bit like bowls and traditionally has been for sportsmen and women with cerebral palsy. 	
rob	And on the line from our studios in Coventry we’ve got Nigel Murray, captain of the GB Boccia team. Hello Nigel. 	
nigel	Hi there. 	
rob	Hello. So you’re going to help us get to the the bottom on boccia I hope at least. So can you tell us in the simplest possible terms, as if me and Liz are both five years old, how do you play boccia?	
nigel	Right, yeah of course. Boccia’s an indoor game and it’s a target game and it’s very similar to that of the game of Pétanque boules. And, as I said, we play indoors and we play on a court that is similar in size to that of a badminton court but we have sort of special markings on the court where we need to throw the boccia balls from, and there’s a perimeter which is about the badminton court size where we must keep the boccia balls within. And we compete either as individuals or in the team event or in pairs. And the idea is, it’s very simple, you start off the game with 13 balls, that’s six red boccia balls, six blue boccia balls and the white ball, the jack ball, and the idea is you’ve got to try and get your balls closest to the white ball, the jack ball, than your opponent. And the more balls you get closer to the jack ball than your nearest opponent’s ball the more points you score. 	
liz	That makes sense. It reminds me of bowls very much, I used to go and watch my Dad, so I think I’ve got a visual on that, excellent. Now you play the game yourself, it has some of the least able athletes in the games boccia though, and you’re a BC2 which means...	
nigel	That’s right.	
liz	...apparently you have certain abilities. I’m really fascinated how are you physically classified by the assessors what do they do to you? 	
nigel	Basically they’re looking at our movements in terms of our body movements, our arm hand functions those are the sort of movements they’re looking for. And as you mentioned boccia is played by many people who have greater disabilities in terms of cerebral palsy. There are actually four classes in the boccia sport in Paralympic terms from BC1 up to BC4. 	
liz	So if they take you into a lab what do they do to you or is it a doctor’s office, what happens?	
nigel	Well it’s more sort of we’re seen by classifiers who tend to be doctors, physiotherapists and what they’re looking, as I said, they’re looking at our range of movement so it’s our trunk movement, our movement of our arm, our hands how we release the ball so that would then determine whether we meet the criteria to be a boccia player in terms of competing. 	
rob	So they pull your arms and hit your leg with a hammer to see your reactions? 	
nigel	No it’s a little bit more...	
rob	Slap you round the face, what do they do? 	
nigel	It’s a little bit more refined than that actually. What they’re actually looking at is medical evidence with your disability. And then what usually happens is most...well I think all players really are put forward by their governing bodies to be a specific class. And then an international panel will look at you as an athlete and agree or disagree with your own country’s classifiers. So there might be movement within that, they may think that you are not a BC1 but a BC2 and so on and so forth. And actually like all sports, disability sport, you can be classified out of the sport as well. The classification process is an ongoing thing really so they look at you year in/year out so see whether your disability has changed. 	
liz	There’s another class as well, there’s BC3 class as well, and they use tubes or a ramp thing to throw the ball onto the court I believe? 	
rob	This is where it gets really interesting. 	
liz	Yeah. 	
rob	It made sense so far but then I was told about tubes.	
nigel	Yeah.	
rob	Is that even the right name, what do you call them? 	
nigel	I think basically three players wouldn’t be very happy if they heard them referred to as tubes. 	
liz	Oops!	
rob	Oh I’m sorry. What should we call them then? 	
nigel	Well they like to be referred to as ramps or assisted devices. BC3 are players who have their highest level of disability. They can be obviously cerebral palsy players but also the classification allows people with muscular dystrophy as well to complete, but those individuals wouldn’t be able to propel a ball with their hands in any way or with their feet. So that’s when it allows them to use an assisted device, a ramp. The ramps are very high tech now. Going back years ramps would just basically be like a drainpipe, but now they’re sort of very sophisticated a lot of technology has gone into the design.	
liz	And people can use an assistant as well, have like a helper is that right?	
nigel	That’s right yeah. That’s the one unique thing BC3s are allowed to have. They’re allowed to have an assistant on court with them. The person who is their assistant has their back to the court so they are unable to see any of the play, and they’re totally directed in the movement of the ramp by the athlete. So the athlete would give indications to their assistant by either communicating and talking to them, or maybe giving sort of indication by moving their heads or blinking their eyes for people who don’t have verbal communication. So the ramp assistant basically is playing blind they’re not involved in the game in terms of seeing the game, all they’re there is to assist a player, move the ramp into position and put the ball on the ramp for the player to propel the ball down the ramp. 	
liz	But could you actually play the game then and not touch the ball? You literally are just directing the assistant?	
nigel	Only at BC3 level where they use the actual ramp. Players who play at my class, BC2, BC1s and BC4s are all players who are able to propel the ball themselves. And you can propel the ball along the ground by rolling the boccia ball along the floor. I use a style a bit more like Pétanque boules sort of throw where I lob the ball to the object balls. At BC1 level people can also kick the ball so again where somebody hasn’t got the use of their hands they can use their feet.	
liz	Nobody told us about this.	
rob	This is incredibly inclusive.	
liz	Nobody told us there was kicking as well. 	
rob 	So hang on what about if you’re not disabled and is something that able-bodied people play at all anywhere? 	
nigel	They do. Anybody can play boccia it’s not just confined to people with disabilities and that’s one of the great things about our sport - anybody of any age can play boccia. And certainly through Europe because the game is very similar to boules or Pétanque a lot of the Scandinavian countries actually play boccia in boccia leagues with able-bodied people, the only difference is they tend to stand to propel a boccia balls like a boules or Pétanque game. But again they play on an indoor surface and with boccia balls. 	
rob	And very quickly, Nigel, finally team GB Boccia have we got a guaranteed gold coming our way? 	
nigel	I’d like to say we’ve got a definite gold. Like all sports there’s no guarantees. 	
ROB	Are we world leaders though, are we good?	
tony	I think Nigel’s being a bit modest here.	
nigel	We are good. 	
rob	Yeah I knew you would be.	
tony	Nigel’s won a couple of Paralympic gold medals. And I think a lot of pressure on and as we move forward we’ve got the boccia test event coming up very, very shortly what are the hopes and expectations of that, Nigel? 	
nigel	Yes it’s going to be a really tough event for us. You just mentioned earlier about the wheelchair rugby, similar to that really the boccia event is really for us to see where we are at the moment. There’s going to be seven other countries competing at the boccia test event at the Olympic Park, we’re going to be using the basketball arena for our competition. We’ve got some of the top countries competing there. Korea are number one at the moment in the world rankings in the team. Portugal, Hong Kong, Ireland, Canada, Japan - some really big countries competing. So we know it’s going to be a tough competition but it’s just I think to see where we’re at at the moment. 	
rob	Well good luck in the test event, Nigel, and thank you very much for coming on the show today. 	
nigel	Thank you very much. Goodbye. 	
ROB	And Tony, the Paralympic calendar is chock-a-block in May tell us what else is coming up? 	
tony	Absolutely it’s really a big month for Paralympic sport in May. Apart from the boccia we’ve just been talking about we’ve got test events; wheelchair tennis, Paralympic archery and athletics all taking place in the first few weeks of May, all big events, obviously the athletics is going to be at the Olympic stadium. Wheelchair tennis that’s an interesting one it’s going to be at Eaton Manor it’s a purpose built venue for wheelchair tennis. Wheelchair tennis obviously is played on grass at the Olympics. Paralympics they do play a little bit on grass but that’s not their preferred subject as one could imagine, not good for the wheelchairs so they’ve built a purpose made venue at Eaton Manor on the Olympic site, so that’s going to be really exciting; quite a few of the top players of the world will be taking part. And then we carry on into May and May 23rd it’s the Paralympic World Cup in Manchester, biggest multi-sport event before the Games. 	
rob	So we’ve got a World Cup and an Olympics.	
tony	Absolutely so we’re going to have lots of great events. So if anyone’s in Manchester between May the 23rd to the 27th go along, you’ll be able to watch athletics, football, sitting volleyball and you’ll have a great time. 	
ROB	It is disability sport overload this year. 	
tony	 Absolutely. 	
ROB	And it’s keeping us all gainfully employed. So thanks so much, Tony, see you again next time. 	
liz	Thank you, Tony, until next month. 
[Jingle: Ouch talking disability. 
Rob:	Do you think that your depression would have taken a 	different form is you weren’t someone in the public 	eye?
Ruby:	You’ve got to stop saying stuff like this.
Rob:	Why?
Ruby:	You really do because people don’t hang themselves 	because they had a TV show on BBC4. This is really 	feeding the stigma. This is like laughing at somebody 	with cancer and saying, “Come on do some Scottish 	dancing.” bbc.co.uk/ouch. Back to Liz Carr and Rob 	Crossan]
	
ROB	In comparison with years gone by you’d be forgiven for thinking that this year had been secretly marked the year of disabled people on TV. There’s been so many programmes around; we’ve had Louis Theroux’s Extreme Love.	
liz	The Undateables. 	
ROB	Turtle Boy.	
liz	Derek.	
ROB	The entire Beyond Disability season.	
liz	Coming soon we’ve got I Am Spasticus, the Hidden Camera Comedy Show, Rob Brydon’s Best of Men, a drama about the Paralympics, that Paralympic Show is back and let’s not forget the Paralympics themselves. 	
rob	And there’s been even more. 	
liz	There might be more but is it what disabled people want? To discuss this in a bit of depth, we’ve got Kate Monaghan, founder and director of her own production company, Markthree Media, which specialises in disability. And Kevin Mulhern, television veteran, the man behind ITV’s Sunday morning Link programme for years, and you’re still producing and making TV just not really about disability anymore. 	
kevin	That’s true, I’ve given it up. 	
liz	You’ve given it up. But you are both disabled aren’t you? 	
kevin	Absolutely. 	
liz	State our cards on the table here. 	
rob	So, Kevin, we’ll talk about the current crop of shows in a minute but let’s give a little bit of context. Historically disabled people haven’t been entirely chuffed with the way they’ve been portrayed. Is that fair to say? Tell us a bit about what it was like when you first began? 	
kevin	Well I think that the truth was that it wasn’t really on the map and I think it was probably much easier for us back then to make programmes about disability from a disabled person’s perspective because there was nothing to compare it against, and there was only two or three channels around at the time, we’re talking the ‘70s, the early ‘80s and just into the ‘90s. But what fascinates me is when you said you said is it what disabled people want, Link which was this programme that went out on commercial ITV, the first television programme for disabled people, came about because an able-bodied person was sent out by ITV and they said, you know, “We’d better do something on the disabled.” And he went off and he came back and said they don’t want any programmes about them, they want their own show, they want their own programme. And that’s it came about. And that was extraordinary to think, that that was 35 years ago, but that’s what happened. And it literally came about because even then somebody was sensitive enough to realise that disabled people have an active idea of what they want, the idea that they were not just passive happy for somebody to do something about them. And I’m going to be fascinated when you talk about the new crop because the thing that interested me was back then it became unacceptable to make programmes about women where women were not actually involved in the production. It became unacceptable to do programmes about racial minorities if racial minorities weren’t involved in the production. And eventually that became true of people’s sort of sexually orientation. Back then and for a long time I always felt that it was perfectly all right, you could do a programme about them, the disabled, anybody, Louis Theroux, anybody could do a programme if they want and I’m wondering if that’s changed? 	
liz	Perhaps this is a good time to listen to a clip from the Louis Theroux’s Extreme Love show. It was filmed in America as Louis’ programmes tend to be. It looks at the relationships that young people on the autistic spectrum have with their parents and others. This is 19 year old Nicki talking to Louis about the books he has written. 
[Playing clip: 
Nicki:	These two are Japanese books, which is my favourite 	language to learn, and I’m starting to write the entire 	alphabet in hiragana, katakana and kanji. 
Louis:	Do you speak Japanese?
Nicki:	Yes. 
Louis:	How do you say, “Hello my name is Nicki?”
Nicki:	Konnichiha (Japanese)
Louis:	Very good. 
Nicki:	Next we have German.
Louis:	Can we move on to Dragon Law?
Nicki:	Not yet. 
Louis:	Oh. 
Nicki:	Next we have Chinese Simplified and last but not 	least, we have the Hindi language book. Hindi is a 	language that they speak in India. Okay well that’s it 	for those. Now we’re moving onto the most 	anticipated work of them all, the Dragon Law novel 	by me of course.]
	
rob	I love that guy. Kate, a bit of autism in the raw there from Louis Theroux. 	
kate	Yeah. 	
ROB	Now was this a good example of disability on TV in your opinion, are programme makers doing a bit better than they used to?	
kate	I think there’s two very different questions. I really enjoyed the Louis Theroux docs, that one and then the documentary on Alzheimer’s that was on the other week. And I think Louis, because he is such an interesting character and he’s been doing this for so many years, as a viewer we kind of give him a bit more leeway than I think we’d give other people who are going into that situation. And I think we kind of let him go into those worlds a bit more than we would somebody else because he does it so well, and we know that, deep down, Louis Theroux I feel he has a heart and he’s wanting to get to the bottom and wanting to understand people. And you can see that he makes real relationships with these people, he’s not just kind of flying in, filming for five minutes and off again, he really spends time and I think his production team really spend time with the families, with the people involved. And I think that’s why he makes such awesome programmes that kind of allow us into these worlds. 	
rob	There seems to, especially with the Louis Theroux programme that you talk about, there is this element of sensitivity and the raw voyeuristic cruelty of how disabled people were portrayed is kind of ebbing away, would you go along with that? 	
kate	I think so, yeah, I think Louis he does it well, he does it differently to other people, he’s not sneering he’s really trying to understand people. And I think that’s the difference. And also there was a scene in that documentary where the mother of one of the boys had to physically hold her son down and Louis said do you want us to continue filming? And that just shows that he really was trying to be sensitive about it. And the Mum said no the only people are going to understand is if we continue, if people see what it’s really like. And I think that’s incredibly important that as members of the public and for me somebody who hasn’t had that much experience in autism to actually watch what the reality of the condition is like for the people suffering and also for the people who are looking after them. 	
rob	Are you sensing this new sincerity, Kevin? 	
kevin	No not at all. I mean it’s the oldest trick in the book to say during an interview “Do you want me to continue?” the lawyers say it all the time. I mean that’s 30 years old, I was always told when in doubt if somebody’s breaking up you say, “Do you want us to continue?” because then you can go back on tape and say I got the person’s permission. Had she said, “No” I wonder if they’d have put it out. I mean I’m not attacking him, I’m not attacking him at all. I don’t like this voyeurism because you’re saying getting an insight into their life, I feel part of the disabled community I don’t feel there’s much difference between me and Liz or me and somebody with autism because it’s how the public view us and I don’t want to be viewed like that. I actually only want programmes...would Louis Theroux being doing that if this was a programme about an ethnic issue, would he get permission?	
kATE	But I think he did though because...	
kevin	Would he get permission?	
kate	I think he did because he looked, I mean one of his last series was looking at something like LA’s tough or America’s toughest jails and that was very much trying to go into the black community and looking at the issues that surround that. And I think he does that and it’s not that he’s going, “Look at these poor disabled people” it’s more that he’s saying, “Let’s look into their lives” and I don’t feel that that’s a bad thing, because when you're not seeing the levels of autism that we witnessed on Louis’ programme, you’re not seeing them in everyday programmes, we’re not seeing them other than somebody like him going and taking the risk to go into those families. And I think it’s more important...	
Kevin	I have. 	
kate	...that we see it and we understand it. 	
kevin	I have through the...I’ve gone round the festivals and have seen programmes on autism many, many programmes on autism, they do it all...	
kate	No, no I mean autistic people being included into mainstream media to mainstream programmes.	
kevin	But autistic people are really quite an easy target really because, as you’ve said, and the people who look after them. I would not like a programme done on me from the pers--...if I did not feel I had complete control over it. And I haven’t seen the programmes, which is a problem, but it’s - and I’ve got to be honest about that - but as an overall principle I want the disabled person to be a participant, I want people on his crew who are disabled. I want people who are...	
kate	I am 100% behind that. I think that in order to have authentic programmes about people with disabilities it has to be...you have to have people behind the camera making them.	
kevin	Exactly. 	
kate	You have to have the understanding of it. But what I’m saying is until we get to that point I think we are at a point where we’re trying hard to get there and somebody like Louis is doing a good job getting us there. 	
kevin	Are we still not there? The truth of it, are we not there? 	
kate	No we’re not, no we’re not there. 	
kevin	Fine.	
kate	We’re not having...we haven’t got to a point where disabled people are just, you know on Coronation Street we’ve got one person but we haven’t got the representation. A documentary that’s made it doesn’t feature a disabled person just as a normal person, we have to have something like The Undateables where it’s all about disability dating. It can’t be a dating show where it includes somebody with a disability it’s a programme about disability dating and I don’t think that’s right, but I think I’d rather see people with disabilities on television and people having a go at it, having a bash getting it wrong, then having another bash then them just trying to avoid the issue altogether. 	
kevin	But my problem is, my problem actually is, is that after many years in this I actually thought we’d improved that problem about disabled people behind in the teams, in the production teams. And can I just tell a very simple anecdote  Link became an independent production company for one very simple reason and that was after I’d worked on it for five years there was 1.5 disabled people and they were all in front of camera. And I kept saying, “But hang on a minute” you know in these days let me tell you commercial television had crews of dozens, and I’m not exaggerating, huge teams of people were working there, you know it was the old days. And I said, “Look I can’t take this” and I resigned, I just said, “I’m leaving” for some reason I cannot penetrate I’ve got a company, a TV which is supportive, I’ve got a programme which admits that we want a programme for disabled people themselves and I cannot seem to get disabled people. And they said, “Well take it out as an independent” because independents were just starting up. And I left and overnight we had a team of 30 of which when I went out 28.5 were able-bodied and 1.5 were disabled. And I went to I think to 22 disabled people and oh God it was a disaster because nobody had been trained, there was nobody trained to work cameras, there was nobody trained, you know, it was ho--...and we trained everybody on the spot. Some of the programmes we put out dear God they were awful. 	
liz	And how many viewers were you getting in those days? 	
kevin	Well a lot. The extraordinary thing about it was when we did...I mean I looked one up yesterday, we did a special which went out in the evening, for example, in 1985 when there were five channels I think there were. And we got 15 million. 	
kate	Blimey.	
kevin	And it was extraordinary. And even at Sunday morning...	
liz	What gets 15 million these days?	
kevin	Yeah I know but even in the mornings we were getting 3 million and it was an extraordinary experience. But eventually we did have disabled cameramen, we did have disabled soundmen, we did have directors. 	
kate	But we’re still not, we’re still not at that point where that’s happening. 	
kevin	It’s horrifying. 	
kate	Because the trouble is in this industry to start in this industry the first job you go for is a runner, and there are so many, many disabled people who can’t do that job, so how do you start if you can’t be the tea monkey, if you can’t do that kind of thing?	
rob	Well you’re asking these questions, Kate, but I can’t think of two people I know who are more capable of actually doing something about it than you two. Kate, you run your own production company; Kevin, you’re constantly in the States working on programmes, you’re identifying problems here but what can be changed? What can you two do? 	
kevin	Well I thought it had changed. I mean I’ll be honest with you I actually thought it was changed. There was the Employer’s Forum on Disability for a while and I really thought things were changing and I did honestly believe that. And I’ve certainly seen things improve. And I know what Kate is talking about I mean they’re called 20/20s in America; they’re basically 20 years old and you pay them $20 and that’s how they get into television. They’re totally, utterly exploited. I actually think the only way in is through the law, I do honestly. 	
kate	But the trouble is there is so many...well I mean my own personal experience of that is that, you know, I’ve gone for jobs and said to them... I’ve been offered the job because I look as if I’m physically able but you know I then said, “I just have to tell you I’ve got arthritis and it means this, this and this” and they say, “Oh sorry we don’t employ disabled people.” And then I say to them...	
rob	You’ve actually had them say those very words?	
kate	Yeah those very words have been said to me. And I’ve said...	
Kevin	My God.	
kate	... you do know that that’s illegal. 	
ROB	That’s illegal. 	
kate	And then they’re lawyer has replied to me and said, “Oh no of course we want to employ you” and then the first opportunity they’ve sacked me. 	
kevin	Oh I believe it. 	
kate	For no reason. But the trouble is unless disabled people are coming in through talent schemes, you know, the BBC talent scheme and the Channel 4’s talent scheme there is a very limited access to it. 	
kevin	Agreed.	
kate	But it’s not just disabled people, it’s people from all diverse backgrounds and also people who can’t afford to work for free for a year, so if you haven’t got mum and dad to support you living in London. 	
rob	This is a huge kettle of worms, this goes way beyond disability	
kevin	Can I just say one thing which is very interesting because going back, way back, and this is a long time ago, my first job was actually working for a newspaper which was The Times and I got rung up by somebody from the BBC who said I’ve read several of your articles would you come and talk to me, I might like to give you a job. And when I turned up and said, “Thank you very much” etc etc he’d given me the job. And I said to him, “As far as you were concerned did you know I couldn’t see?” And he said, “No.” And I said, “Would you have rung me up had you known?” He said, “I honestly don’t know, probably not.” And he was the person eventually who did more in disability broadcasting I mean he set up the whole thing at television eventually. I know what you’re saying, but the thing that bothers me is that you have to go in, and I do accept the point about the runner level etc where you’re getting into, but I do think what we need to be saying I think disabled people should not cooperate with production companies in making programmes unless they are convinced there is some knowledge of disability based in that programme. And if we are x number of the population, I don’t know what it is, then I certainly think that we should be there, and I’m all in favour of affirmative action and positive discrimination and really using the law. I mean it’s easy for me, I’m old as Liz keeps pointing out, I have got nothing to lose I’m willing to take them on at any level. If you’re 20 or 21 years old you think I can’t upset the applecart.  	
kate	You can’t, you can’t. 	
kevin	Therefore we...	
kate	You will never get a job again that’s the trouble you will never...the television industry is such a tiny little business that you annoy one person and everybody else hears about it and you don’t get a job again.	
kevin	That’s true. 	
rob	So we heard about obviously in the past in the ‘80s Kevin’s attempts, well intentioned attempts to employ disabled people all of whom turned out to be spectacularly untrained. But what about you then, Kate, I mean do you have disabled people knocking on your door constantly of your production company and how many of them do you employ?	
kate	I mean shockingly we don’t have that many people who are knocking on our door and that really saddens me because that’s what I want, I want people to be shouting at me saying, “Give me a job, give me a job.” And when that’s happened we’ve found some incredibly talented people. I’ve got an editor working for me at the moment who’s come out of university and I said to him, you know, “I don’t have any jobs” but he was like, “Just let me come and work for you just for a week.” And I was like, “Okay” you know come on let’s have a look. And he couldn’t get a job anywhere else because he had muscular dystrophy and it was just too big a barrier for everybody. And then actually within that week he’d done more for me than previous editors had done in like a month. And I was like blimey we’ll just have to find the money to employ you. 	
liz	So we need to get more people behind the scenes and in the industry...	
kate	 For sure. 	
liz	...absolutely definitely. Yeah we’ll all agree on that. 	
kate	Yeah. 	
liz	But what do we want to see? I mean it feels like this always having this conversation, disability and the media, you know, we cover it on Ouch, it’s everywhere, there’s a new programme out. So what do we actually want to see out there?	
kevin	I’ll tell you what I want to see. I actually want I don’t believe in this approach where we say, “Well actually we’re just part of the ordinary community but we just happen to have no legs, or no eyes or no ears.” We actually have an identity of who we are, as disabled people, and I think we’ve got to be careful in television, we’ve always had to be careful. When I used to train disabled people and they were working on a disability programme the first thing they wanted to do once they were trained was go and work on a programme that wasn’t about disability. And I understood that, particularly back then, I mean 25 years ago it was pretty rough, so I understood that. But I actually think that we do actually have an identity; I feel considerably more in common with the disabled people I’ve worked with and I’ve represented over the years than the non-disabled people I now work with. I feel alienated from them and I think they know nothing about me really, they know nothing about my life because we can’t actually ever get it over. I mean the relaxation in here when the mics are off, what we say to one another, is still not broadcastable. I mean it isn’t because of the fact that nobody would understand the shorthand language that disabled people use and I would love to see that get out there. I would love to see the comfort there is with disabled...I am not ashamed of being disabled.	
kate	I agree in that and I see, you know, in my production company we have I think it’s about 80% of us have disabilities and 20% of us don’t, and that’s great in that mix, and we have that kind of community together. But I completely disagree that we should be making programmes by disabled people for disabled people because who wants to watch it. What I want to strive for I want to strive for to just be normal, you know, there are incredible stories about disabled people and those stories should be told. 	
kevin	But those stories...	
kate	But they should just be told as part … (Guests talk over each other passionately)	
rob	They are being told aren’t they? 	
kevin	No they’re not being told. 	
ROB	No? 	
kevin	Because look if you go back to the last two Oscar winning programmes on disability, one was My Left Foot where they took an able-bodied actor to play...	
kate	Oh but that...	
kevin	...hang on a minute, to play somebody and people said, “Isn’t he marvellous the way he does it?” I knew several actors who could have done it a damn sight better who actually had cerebral palsy. Rain Man was extremely similar. What has that really got to do with the reality?	
kate	But it’s not. But what have normal love stories got to do with normal people falling in love? Surely the whole point about movie films...	
kevin	Oh so you just want un-realism?	
kate	No, no but that’s films that’s not real life is it? Real life documentaries and also things like the dramas and the soaps and stuff we should be just a normal part of it, we should be striving to be every day normal all of this kind of stuff.	
kevin	But you can’t be every day unless you’re integrated into the community because I remember back in the ‘70s...	
kate	Yes you can. 	
kevin	Hang on.	
kate	I don’t believe that there’s, I don’t believe...	
rob	Hang on guys, you’re both talking at once. Let’s let Kevin finish. 	
kevin	Like when they did programmes like Cagney and Lacey and whatever people in Britain were bouncing up and down in the ‘70s saying, “Look at all the people in the background in wheelchairs. Look at the way that that’s been reflected...disability’s being reflected.” The only reason why that was being reflected there was a thing called the American Architectural Barriers Act which actually made anybody doing business with the Federal Government make their buildings accessible, and lo and behold, there were people appearing in wheelchairs. The actual person behind the camera wasn’t putting disabled people in there they were in there. Now the question is are they there in our society now in the same way? Do they crop up in Coronation Street situations? I don’t think they do. I think they’re still being excluded and you're telling me they’re totally excluded from the industry that’s making programmes about them. 	
liz	Kate, we’ll have to give you the last word, what do you say to that? 	
kate	I mean I can totally see where you're coming from and I think we’re fighting the same corner, to be honest with you, but I just think that if we’ve got this massive medium that is television we should be including everybody we possibly can on it because it’s only and including people and making disability as normal as we possibly can that other people are going to understand it and take it as normal. 	
rob	Thank you so much for a fascinating debate. Thank you Kevin and thank you Kate. That’s it for this show. Find us on your social media. Get following us and take a look at our blog between now and the next podcast. It’s at bbc.co.uk/ouch.	
liz	Thanks to the team, Emma Tracey, Vaughan Simons and our studio manager, Richard Andrews. The producer was Damon Rose. 	
rob	And this month we’re playing out with a track from Siglo 21. You can find out more about them from our blog. This track’s called Interesting Features.	
Liz and rob	Goodbye. 
[Playing music]