Ouch Talk Show #88 August 2012
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Rob Crossan and Julie Fernandez 

rob	Thank you for downloading our show. We're a podcast from the BBC and we like to dig deep and unearth the little bits of disability life that other people don't talk about. Coming up on this show we've all heard of guide dogs for blind people well we'll be discussing the lesser known assistance dogs out there and what animals are able to do for disabled people. Later we'll be meeting up with Aussie comedian Imaan Hadchiti who is performing at the Edinburgh Fringe this summer. He's three and a half feet tall but is he disabled? And we're just days away from the Paralympics now, we'll be giving you a roundup and talking to hand cyclist Rachel Morris, a GB medal hopeful who had a nasty road accident just over three weeks ago which may have put paid to that dream. As they say around here Ouch! 
[Jingle: From London it's Ouch disability talk from the BBC with Liz Carr and Rob Crossan.]
Or at least it would be if Liz was actually here. She's not. In her place though we do have TV's Julie Fernandez of The Office and El Dorado fame, hello Julie. 	
julie	Hello. 	
rob	20 years since El Dorado, 10 years since The Office are you getting a little bit sick of this ((moniker - 0:01:22?)) that we insist on giving you on Ouch.  	
julie	I like 'it's TV's Julie Fernandez'.	
rob	As opposed to greyhound racing's Rob Crossan - it doesn't really work. 	
julie	What I can't believe is people still recognise me more for El Dorado, which was 20 years ago, than from The Office which was 10 years ago would you believe. 	
rob	Because I didn't watch El Dorado at all you had a much bigger part in that I presume? 	
julie	Yes, yes and it was a whole year so there was a lot more to it and it was blue skies and sunshine, it was lovely. 	
rob	For those who don't remember El Dorado, or indeed weren't even born when El Dorado was on, and I imagine there's quite a few of you, it was a short lived BBC1 soap opera set in Majorca was it?	
julie	On the Costa del Sol. 	
rob	On the Costa del Sol. 	
julie	Yes in mainland Spain.	
rob	Involving a group of slightly dysfunctional individuals. 	
julie	Although there's a big push to try and get El Dorado back on our screens at the moment. 	
rob	Well you say this but are you actually the person who's starting this rumour? 	
julie	Er I can't tell you that because I'm going to have to kill you. 	
rob	Come on who really wants El Dorado back? 	
julie	You'd be surprised how many people still rave about it. 	
rob	Really? 	
julie	Yeah absolutely. 	
rob	And what was the name of your character?	
julie	Nessa. 	
rob	And was she a goodie or a baddie?	
julie	She was a teenager living out in Spain and yes she was great, she was a typical…	
rob	Stroppy, petulant…	
JULIE	Stroppy yeah absolutely.	
rob	…teenager.	
JULIE	Yeah absolutely. 	
rob	Anyway look, I've got another important question which I need to ask you not regarding El Dorado. 	
JULIE	Right. 	
rob	Do you have any pets? 	
julie	I do. I am 'the mad cat lady' from the Simpsons, I have six cats no less. 	
rob	None of them are actually clinging to you right now. You are able to travel, go out of the house without them following you or anything like that? 	
julie	Yes I left them at home yes. But my PA, Debbie, when she goes into the house after I'm out all day for work to get my wheelchair and bring it out to the car she's usually followed by a group of squealing cats who wants lots of love and kisses and attention. They are my babies you know. 	
rob	And do they help you I mean what's the relation between having cats and a disability because cats are notoriously selfish, my cat does nothing to help me with my vision impairment. In fact if anything he makes it worse…	
julie 	He probably gets in the way. 	
rob	…because I trip over him quite a lot despite him being massive and ginger. 	
julie	Yes I have a cat called Jimbo, who's three legged, who has a habit of lying in doorways so I have to command him with 'up' and as soon as I say 'up' he gets up and gets out the way. But I actually find them really, really comforting, they're very loving, they're very kind. I do suffer with a lot of back pain so when I'm laid out on the sofa and they're laying on top of me and purring and the whole stroking thing I find all that very, very therapeutic. 	
rob	And it's not such a bad life for the cats either. 	
julie	It's a bloomin'…	
rob	Ultimately they wouldn't do it... 	
julie	I'm coming back...	
rob	... unless there was something in it for them.	
julie	Absolutely. 	
rob	Can you get prosthetic legs for cats? 	
julie	Do you know what I don't know, I could find that one out. 	
rob	Maybe it's something to sell. 	
julie	No patchwork prosthetic leg, no I'm not having that, no, no. 	
rob	I don't know that sounds quite good. 	
julie	From a more kind of grown up point of view I do think pets are really good in that our whole life tends to revolve around our disability in some way, shape or form and actually it's quite nice to be responsible for something else and to think about something else that's living that you need to take care of not just it always being about yourself. 	
rob	So actually it can make you a little less, I don't know, sort of self-centred do you think?	
julie	Well it just takes your mind off all the other stuff that you need to go and organise. 	
rob	It's a distraction. 	
julie	It is. 	
rob	A furry distraction. 	
julie	Going out the house as a wheelchair user you have to plan every minutiae detail even just making a cup of tea, you know, is that surface free so actually it's really nice to think about something other than yourself. 	
rob	So on the line we've got two people who are rather well placed to help us discuss assistance animals; in our Oxford studio is Katie Bristow-Wade from the charity Dogs for the Disabled. And on the phone we have Caroline Jeffcote and assistance dog owner in Gloucester. Katie and Caroline, hello. 	
?	Hello. 	
?	Hello.	
julie	Hi. So listen before we go any further we just wanted to try and pin down what animals, mostly dogs in this case, can do for their owners. So we put something out on Facebook and Twitter and we asked tell us about your pet what does he or she bring to your life as a disabled person, or even that of your disabled child? And we got some really interesting answers back didn't we, Rob? 	
rob	We did. FPEM, no idea what the acronym means, but he or she has tweeted us to say "Companionship, sense of worth, pain and stress relief, the benefits are endless." 	
julie	Primategirl also on Twitter wrote "Forget Tramadole, Codeine etc my Bichon Frise dog and hamsters are the best painkillers I've ever had". Now our producer has just done a thing in brackets here saying 'It's a white lapdog with luxuriant double coat. It's a non shedding variety and is less likely to affect those with allergies.' 	
rob	Beth Dawes on Facebook told us, "I just love having a guide dog not only does it mean I'm confident to go to all sorts of places I wouldn't without a cane, I've also found two of my dogs have been really tuned into my mental health. My current dog, Annie, showed it in training keeping her head on my lap until I'd stopped being upset."	
julie	I think that's really quite special you know and that really shows how good dogs are. Katie and Caroline can you relate to these stories? 	
katie	Oh yes certainly. I mean we're constantly getting this feedback from our parents at our Paws Workshops, for example, both from parents without mental health illnesses but looking after children with autism helping themselves just as much as their children. 	
rob	What's the Paws Workshop? 	
katie	The Paws Workshops we hold workshops for parents of children with autism helping them train their pet dogs for all these sorts of cases, just as you've been speaking about really, helping them really make the most of that pet dog in the home. So we've got a Jack Russell helping intervene in a meltdown for a six year old boy with severe autism. 	
julie	And how does he help if the boy has a meltdown, what does that dog do? 	
katie	Well he's actually been taught to press a button that makes a funny noise. So it makes a sort of like a farting noise that makes the boy laugh. So it gives mum those few milliseconds to completely change the atmosphere, distract the child on doing another behaviour. 	
rob	Now we did have one person tweet us who I think was a bit unhappy with our enquiry. He said, "I'm confused by the question. Why should having a pet be any different if you're disabled or not?" So Simon Cowens to answer your slightly belligerent question Katie and Caroline are we being a bit cutesy, cutesy here - should we knock this on the head right now? 	
caroline	No I don't think so at all I think to me my assistant dog is a life changing experience, it makes a difference between me being able to hold a normal young woman...parent's lifestyle to being completely isolated, wheelchair bound if I didn't have my dog. So to me a dog that's highly trained it can make a world of difference. 	
rob	So what do you do with your dog then? 	
caroline	What does my dog do for me? 	
rob	Yeah if you want to put it like that, yes. What does your dog do for you, how does it earn its keep?	
caroline	Her job description she has quite an extensive list really. She's trained by Canine Partners which does a similar sort of job to Dogs for Disabled - she's trained to do sort of physical daily living tasks. So, for example, if I drop an item on the floor like my car keys she can pick them up for me. When I was at university I used to drop my car keys on the floor all the time because my hands are useless with arthritis, and I'd have to just stand around by my car hoping for a nice passer-by to pick the keys up for me. Whereas now I've got my dog with me, drop the keys - no problem, don't even think about it. 	
julie	What do you say to her when you drop your keys? 	
caroline	Uh-ho! 	
julie	Brilliant. 	
rob	And that works. Hang on what's the single most impressive command that she does? 	
caroline 	Okay. I mean she has specific commands that Canine Partners are trained but the dog eventually gets to know you and you can just say things like "Uh-ho" but usually it'll be "Look, look get the keys" so you're telling the dog to look see what you've dropped, you look at the keys she knows that that's what she's got to go and get and then she brings it to you. If I'm sitting I can't sort of reach her mouth easily because I don't have any reach in my arms, so she'll bring the keys right up to me so that they're right in the middle of my lap so I can get them. With some people walking and they're standing and they don't need the dog to bring it up to their lap so they can just hold their hand out.	
julie	Caroline, there's something really interesting though that I've read about you, I mean your dog knows 100 commands right? 	
caroline 	She does. 	
julie	But the most impressive thing I think is that you've got a young child is that right? 	
caroline	Yes that's right yes. 	
JULIE	And your dog is able to prevent your young child from going up the stairs by putting itself as a barrier between it...	
caroline	That's right yes. 	
rob	A canine shield.  	
julie	Does it know that instinctively, tell me more about that? 	
caroline 	Well the dogs are given basic commands but they obviously I don't think there's many of us who have children. And so what Canine Partners do is they set you up with the basic sort of how to train a dog using the clicker. And what happens is when I see my son sort of verging off to do something a bit mischievous or dangerous I say, "Stop" and because I've said stop Yasmin has immediately looked at me, my dog, and then you click that because that gets her attention.  	
rob	What's a clicker? 	
caroline	A clicker it's just a little box like literally a button you press that goes 'click' and it's just a sound that tells the dog that they've done something right, and as soon as you click that clicker you reward it with a bit of food so it knows it's done something right. So when you're breaking down a training process like I want my dog to go in front of my son to block his pathway to the stairs, for example, you train a process. So the first process is the dog looks at you, you click that, reward it. The next process is you tell her to go in front of you by putting your hand there or say "Front" you click that and that's another reward. And eventually you build up a whole sequence so the dog knows instantly by saying "Stop" it's got to run out in front of the child, lie down, block his way. 	
JULIE	I think that's just so clever I think that's absolutely amazing. 	
caroline	Yeah.	
rob	And Katie, we'll come to you in a minute, Katie, there's just one more thing I wanted to ask Caroline because this sounds so unbelievable that I almost think it must be a windup, but apparently, and maybe you can tell me a bit more about this, there are dogs who are trained to be able to put their owners chip and pin digits into a machine with their nose. 	
caroline	There are! I kid you not. 	
rob	How on earth can they do that? Because most human beings forget their pin numbers, how can a dog remember? 	
caroline	I think my father who regularly tells us he's a pensioner nowadays says he could do with a dog that does that. I think everybody could use one of these dogs in a way. I don't personally need her to do it, but I know that ATM machines, so many of them are inaccessible for starters because they're up too high, so the dog will take the card from the owner. You obviously put it in the way that the dog's got to put it in the machine. It'll take the card put it in the machine and through learning a sequence of numbers, by the clicker method again, they can tap in the chip and pin number. 	
rob	Can you imagine the potential for dog fraud? Who's been running up all this money on Chum on my account? Rover where have you been? Katie, let's come back to you. What other purposes can dogs have I suppose for disabled people beyond this practical assistance and guiding?  	
katie	I think there's just no limit at the moment. We're finding more and more dogs for the disabled with all the different projects that we're taking on. So we've got assistance dogs out there helping people that are physical disabled, adults and children, right through to helping adults and children with autism, or anywhere on the spectrum, it may be Asperger's or autism. It can be that a dog can help people with early onset dementia. It really is...	
rob	Give me some practical examples, how would it help somebody with Alzheimer's let's do that one first?  	
katie	It's really looking at what the needs of those clients are what are they...are they feeling overwhelmed by unfamiliar situations, for example, so we explore that. And then think how could a dog actually make this unfamiliar situation more copable help the client adapt. 	
rob 	So give me one example then. 	
katie	Even just having that dog beside them can be enough of there is this consistent dog that I know that I feel comfortable with that I have a relationship with that I don't have to make eye contact with all these strangers running around me. 	
rob	I see. 	
katie	I can just stand by...so it's that source of support. So a well trained dog that can just stand there given that comfort. It maybe that we teach the dog to nudge the person when they're maybe wringing their hands or something, so anxiety related. We could teach that. It's just up to us as dog trainers to acknowledge, you know, work out what the client's needs are and we can just go from there. 	
rob	And you believe dogs can be role models as well?	
katie	Yes we use role models, Paws is about pet dogs so it's not about assistance dogs. So we use all range of breeds from small dogs right through to Bernese Mountain dogs as role models, particularly for the children with autism, for example. So a child might have a problem brushing his teeth or putting his shoes on or putting his pyjamas on, having a haircut. And often these things can be a real struggle to get over for parents. Just having that dog there you can get doggie toothbrush, you can get doggie toothpaste, they don't have to be trained. 	
julie	What's the most exciting thing you've seen happen in terms of dogs that are supporting people with disabilities? 	
katie	Well I mean it always baffles me when a parent comes to me and says that their child has started speaking since getting a dog in their home. So, for example, we've got a Corgi, just entered the home, within a month that child was starting to say a few words and make eye contact to mum. 	
julie	Wow why do you think that is? 	
katie	Again, it's all anecdotal at the moment because there's no hard evidence, the research is coming out next year, I can tell you about that next year, but we think reducing anxiety levels in the home, you know day to day stresses of all these things from teeth brushing to a dog bringing the shoes, so the child puts on the shoes without a meltdown. That lowered level of anxiety and the change of focus for mum not to be staring at child worrying about when child will be speaking they're actually worrying about when the dog needs a walk, it seems to sort of open up space and allow this child to feel relaxed about taking on new learning. 	
julie	So if there's people out there who have pets of their own and they've got a disabled child how do they get in contact with you? 	
katie	Well with Paws that's for the children with autism between three and 16 years old, if you just google Paws Workshops we come up on the first link there. It's the Dogs for the Disabled website otherwise if you want to look at all of our other services. 	
rob	Just before dogs everywhere start to get too cocky and leading some kind of canine intellectual revolution which frankly fills me with fear, there's another animal on the rise, we've had a tweet here from Sue who said, "When our son was diagnosed with diabetes we bought him two dagoos" who apparently can't tolerate sugar. Now a dagoo is, if you're interested, a rodent native to Chile sometimes referred to as the brush tailed rat and they can make very good pets. They're also at high risk of getting diabetes if you don't restrict certain sugars from their diet. So a dagoo is that something you're aware of? 	
caroline	No. 	
katie	I have heard of something like that.	
rob	Oh you have. 	
katie	Again you could use it as a role model. 	
rob	 I think so, the perfect role model. 	
katie	The same way. 	
rob	Absolutely. Well thank you both so much for talking to us. Thank you Katie, thank you Caroline.	
caroline	No problem. 	
rob	And thanks also to everybody else who contacted us on social media for this little bit. 	
julie	And if you want to take part in our discussions get along to our blog to find out how to contact us on Facebook and Twitter. We're at bbc.co.uk/ouch. 
[Jingle: Ouch talking disability. I had years viewing my walk as I walked badly. Then I realised no this is the best I can walk, this is the best. And it really changed the way I felt and I kind of felt proud of myself. And the way I did things I went they’re not bad they’re the way I do it.
bbc.co.uk/ouch.]
	
rob	Still to come comedian Imaan Hadchiti and [playing music] that's Jez Colborne, the learning disabled artist who adores...well warning sirens. You can hear that later in full. 	
julie	And we've got our lovely Paralympian man, Tony Garrett, morning Tony. 	
rob	Hello Tony. 	
tony	Hello. 	
julie	How're you doing? 	
tony	Good thanks. 	
julie	Got a little bit of a woeful story to tell us I hear, something to do with your driving licence? 	
tony	Yes all a bit embarrassing and a bit annoying at the moment. I sort of had a list of jobs to do and one of those was oh let's renew driving licence it was an old green one, falling apart at the seams, so send it back to get a new photo one in the modern world. Wish I hadn't bothered. I tell you it's been a disaster ever since. So I sent it off, didn't hear anything back. Then I got a letter back saying could you tell us a bit more about your disability because we don't seem to have any record of you having a disability. 	
julie	Wow!	
rob	Oh they challenged you? 	
tony	They challenged me. So I thought oh hang on it hasn't changed in 35 years but we'll fill a form in, send it back, keep everybody nice and happy. Didn't hear anymore for a while then I got a phone call saying, "Hello, Mr Garrett, we're ringing about your licence, we can't find a record anywhere of you ever having passed your driving test." 	
julie	So is that a DVLA do-do then? 	
tony	It's a DVLA do-do. Well I've been driving for 35 years on a full licence. Before that I had an invalid carriage.	
JULIE	What's one of them then? 	
tony	Well going back many years ago you see, my age gives me away probably, I used to commute in one of those blue three wheeler wagons that used to be around. In fact a good story; I used to commute from Orpington to the BBC in West London when it was cold, there was no heaters and I even aquaplaned one once around Biggin Hill. 	
julie	I bet that was interesting. 	
tony	It was.	
julie	And a little scary? 	
tony	A little scary. I was going to say I got out and walked away which it's not totally true being in a wheelchair but...	
rob	It's not really a lady magnet is it driving a bubble car I imagine. Is it like sort of driving around in a glass teapot?	
tony	Rob a few years ago...you're wrong. 	
rob	No?	
tony	I could tell you a few stories. 	
rob	You could pick up the chicks in an invalid carriage. 	
tony	Absolutely. One or two at a time but we don't want to know that. 	
julie	Pulling power baby! 	
tony	I have moved on. Then I got a letter just a couple of weeks ago saying that we've looked through all your records all we can find is that you've actually passed a full driving test in an invalid carriage, so you're not really entitled to drive.	
julie	Oh!	
rob	Wow!	
tony	I know and I was like flabbergasted. 	
rob	So hang on, back up a sec, so you've been driving illegally for three and a quarter decades now?	
tony	Unbelievably so and despite me having had some fines for speeding and even going to court to challenge it unsuccessfully on one occasion...	
rob	Nobody ever, ever noticed.	
tony	...nobody's ever picked it up. It says full licence but when you look down into the background or into the codes, and people clearly haven't, it says it. So I said, "But this is crazy." So they said, "You've got to do it, you've got to get a driving test."	
rob	So to back up...	
julie	So you've got to go to driving... Have you got a driving test then? 	
tony	I've got to have driving lessons and I've got to pass the test. 	
julie	Have you?	
tony	Help somebody! 	
julie	When, when, when, when? Are we not be on the roads. 	
tony	Well of course we're not driving at the moment. 	
rob	Of course. 	
tony	Apart from is I have someone sort of aged 21 and has a licence who can sit with me and I've got to have 'L' plates on. So it's really scary and I've just managed to book a test, August the 15th is D-day.	
rob	And best of luck. So let's just emphasise this in case anyone from the DVLA is listening. Now Tony has been made aware of his law-breaking status he is no longer driving and will not be until August the...?	
tony	15th. 	
rob	...at the earliest.	
tony	That is correct. Unless I have a responsible person who has passed their test sitting next to me. 	
rob	I'm glad we've cleared that up in a really naturalistic way as well. So let's go back to the Paralympics. It's been a month since you last talked to us down the phone from the Netherlands. What's been going on in the past few weeks? I think now everybody who's going to be in the Paralympics knows don't they finally?	
tony	Absolutely, Rob, all the squads have been selected, the athletics squad and the equestrian squad were two of the last squads selected. And also cycling they were the last three to be honest with you. So Lee Pearson, who we had on our show a few months ago. 	
rob	Remember him well. 	
tony	He's in which is good news, and Lee could beat Tanni's record and break that at the Games, so that's one to look for. 	
rob	As long as he doesn't trip over any more chickens. 	
tony	Yes he did trip over some chickens and had a bad fall last year. So he's on nine, Tanni's on 11 with the Para-Dressage he could get three more to make it 12. So Lee's in. The athletics squad are in we have some great stories there. And obviously cycling which we'll come onto in a minute. So that's all the squads done and announced. And then we met them all at a BPA weekend in London just very recently where all the athletes got their kit, all the press were there, they were given all the dos and don'ts about what you can say or can't do at the Paralympics, and it was a great atmosphere, really tremendous atmosphere. So all the athletes, you know the whole squads there. They're all now fine tuning their preparations ahead of the 29th August. 	
julie	And what's the kit look like? 	
tony	The kit yeah it's very similar to the Olympic kit. I think they're very pleased. And also they've had a lot of input this time from a well known brand called Next who have supplied lots of other stuff as well. So everyone's so excited about it. 	
rob	Other clothing manufacturers are available. 	
tony	Correct. 	
julie	Now we're going to have some more recent news and we're going to chat to the very lovely Rachel Morris who's on the line. Rachel, can you hear us? 	
rachel	I can. Hello. 	
julie	Hello. How're you doing? 	
rachel	Yeah really good, thank you, yeah. 	
julie	Cool. Now you've pulled off the road have you? 	
rachel	I am yes, well off. 	
julie	Marvellous. So Rachel is competing in the road cycling event and things were looking really, really good until something of a setback happened recently. Tony, what are the details? 	
tony	Yeah I mean Rachel we've spoken and it's great to get Rachel back out training as we're speaking on the programme this morning. Rachel I've been following Rachel's progress for a few years. Rachel, current Paralympic road race champion from Beijing and so Rachel's in the hand cycling. And Rachel, just a few weeks ago you had a pretty terrible crash didn't you? 	
rachel	I certainly did. That's not something I would want to repeat again in a hurry. But I was just doing a time trial in the evening, it's a regular time trial that I do and unfortunately, for some reason, I was chosen by a car at random to be hit. I was on the dual carriageway which is where the time trial runs and there were about 36 riders out that night. And as I say unfortunately I was hit by the car. And as it was dual carriageway so it's national speed limit which is 70 mph. And I was incredibly lucky to walk way, so to speak. 	
rob	So you weren't knocked unconscious or anything? 	
rachel	No I wasn't. I dislocated my shoulder and that's been the biggest problem. And I've got a head injury, so I've cracked the base of my skull. But apart from that...	
JULIE	Apart from that eh? 	
rachel	...actually ((0:25:22?)) was fine. 	
JULIE	But you're back on track, are you going to be competing, are you hopeful for a medal?	
rachel	I am competing. I am literally back on my bike from yesterday. So I've had three weeks off my bike which at this stage is a nightmare really. 	
rob	Is there anything you can do in the interim or is it just a case of diet or is anything you can do to keep yourself in the game, so to speak?	
rachel 	It was really, really hard. I've been doing weights as much as I can with my left arm, but obviously I don't want to over compensate on one side and become too strong on one side so that I don't pedal smoothly so that's a bit of a problem. And I've got very little movement in my shoulder so I've not been able to do weights on that side to do anything other than be desperate to get back on my bike. 	
rob	And have you been forced in a way to alter your expectations now of what you can achieve or are you still absolutely focused on gold? 	
rachel	I'd love to say the latter and I'm trying to think like that because I think if I go in with anything less at the moment it'll be very, very hard. So yeah I am trying to think that that's what I'll come away with is gold and that's how I'm trying to focus at the moment. But there's a bit at the back of my head that knows that in three weeks and I'm not going to be back training now for another week at least probably. 	
rob	Because I wonder how you psychologically deal with these kind of setbacks, I mean how long was it between the accident and your shaking the fist at the skies and going, "Why me, why now?" I mean is that something that goes through your head at all? 	
rachel	I've tried not to let that happen because I think that it would put me off too much in focus. So I've tried to...I've got a psychologist who I've been seeing locally and who's been fantastic and she's really, really helped sort of trying my head on focus rather than sort of go off into anger and upset and all that you could quite easily I think. 	
julie	You've had a real tough year haven't you, Rachel, though. You've lost your fiancé and is it part of getting back on track really quickly and doing the games is to do what he wanted you to do? 	
rachel 	Yes that's actually true. It's the bit that Ed knew that I was doing and he's always been the one behind me massively in getting me into hand cycling at the beginning, and also in helping me train and getting me to events early on before I was onto the squad. So it means an awful lot to get there and I suppose that is a big driving force in getting me to the games. 	
julie	Do you think disabled people have a different attitude towards their body and the whole stamina thing than able bodied athletes? For example, I mean you've just had the most horrendous injuries and you're still going for it. And then you've got someone like Paula Radcliffe, and I'm not saying she's not brilliant - she is, but she's now not competing and yet you are. 	
rachel	I think it's a very, very different situation. I think if you've got an injury that you're trying to run on like that that potentially she could end up not walking from that's, you know, to keep walking is far more important ultimately than running a race if you take it back to its real basic level. 	
julie	But you don't walk already and you're still doing it and you're still going out there and achieving. 	
rachel	I don't know I think it just depends a bit and it also it depends on the team that you've got around you. She's got a phenomenal team around her and I think you know sometimes people are more cautious, but I do think she's had an awfully tough time in her sporting career. She's had so many ups and downs that have meant that she's been knocked out of so many things and mentally that's obviously taken a toll on her at times as it does on anybody. So I don't know I think everybody's situation is different whether you're disabled or able-bodied, I think people react differently. 	
rob	We have managed to get through this Paralympic conversation without using the word 'equality' or 'inclusion' which makes me smile on so many levels. But one thing that's rather interesting is that the road cycling event the normal Olympics it's going through all the central London landmarks, but the equivalent Paralympic event is actually not going to be in London at all, somewhat marginalised some may say. Where's it actually going to be? I think Tony knows this one don't you? 	
tony	It's going to be Brands Hatch which is a tremendously iconic venue for cycling and especially motor racing. 	
julie	Brands Hatch is a really cool place to have sports and for disabled people to be doing it there. Alright I understand it's not the capital of the country...	
rob	Yeah why isn't it...	
julie	...but wow what a cool venue to do.	
rob	...in Central London, Tony? 	
tony	Well there's a couple of reasons why it's not in Central London: one the road race cycling, which has got three different categories which we'll touch on in a minute, goes over four to five days so I think there was a real concern that closed...and also the training beforehand, so to close all the roads in and around London like they've done for the Olympics, you know, was going to snarl the whole area up to have two hits there. Secondly, they were also looking to try and see other venues and they came up with Richmond Park which apparently is a lovely venue, great for racing, but they were worried about the deer I believe Rachel. Rachel Morris and company might be taking out a couple of deer on the route. 	
	 	
rob	Is that seriously the reason - we might startle the deer?	
tony	Rachel, add to that. 	
rachel	That was one of the reasons that was given and also the Queen has to give permission for the race to occur in the park, and I understand that didn't happen. I mean I am really excited about it because the course is such a challenging course compared to the courses that we've ridden before, and I've always felt that we should be riding more challenging courses and more equal to Olympic or able-bodied courses, so from that point of view I think it's fantastic. But on the other hand it is a shame it's out of Central London. 	
rob	So thank you so much for coming on and talking to us and interrupting your training schedule. We wish you absolutely the very best of luck under the most...not the most ideal circumstances we know but we're all routing for you here. Thanks so much, Rachel. 	
rachel	Thank you very much. 	
julie	Take care. 	
rachel	Thank you.	
JULIE	See you soon. Bye. Good luck.	
Tony	Good luck, Rachel, good luck. Cheers. 	
rachel 	Thank you. Bye. 	
julie	So, Tony, we're weeks, days away from holding the biggest ever disability event in our very own capital and a little bit down the road in Brands Hatch of course, but tell me what are the top three things that you think we should look out for so that we don't miss the best bits? 	
tony	The Paralympics is going to be absolutely unbelievable it will be stunning. It is the biggest event in Paralympic terms this country's ever seen, there's a whole load of issues that we're talking about transportation, expectations to do but it's a sporting event, so I would say the three, the producer wanted me to keep it to three, I think there's five minimum so we'll go through what we can. Equestrian down at Greenwich, Lee Pearson as we mentioned earlier, great chance there. Athletics David Weir, you know he is the great wheelchair racer going in three events. Lots of pressure on Dave because it is the blue ribbon of athletics in wheelchair terms, so Dave Weir to look out for. In the pool we should have lots of success Ellie Simmonds again, she'll be one of the people to look out for but she'll be under a lot of pressure because internationally the world's moved on, so Ellie Simmons certainly. Heather Frederiksen's another very good swimmer. Rowing; London's Tom Aggar unbeaten for a number of years, Paralympic champion, so Tom Aggar will be the big one. And I think finally, cycling, we've been talking about Brands Hatch but obviously at the velodrome Jodi Cundy, Jon-Allen Butterworth - two top cyclists to look out for. So plenty going on. And also still tickets available and Brands Hatch will be a great venue to get tickets as well, so everyone's looking forward to it. 	
julie	Brilliant. 	
rob	Fantastic. Exciting times! We'll see you in our Paralympic Special in a few weeks' time Tony. 	
tony	Thank you very much. 
[Jingle: Ouch talking disability. 
The relaxation in here when the mics are off, what we say to one another, is still not broadcastable. I mean it isn't because of the fact that nobody would understand the shorthand language disabled people use and I love to see that get out there. bbc.co.uk/ouch.]	
julie	So on the line from Edinburgh we have the Aussie comedian, Imaan Hadchiti. Hello mate how're you doing?  	
Imaan	Good. How are you? 	
julie	I'm good. How's Edinburgh? 	
imaan	Oh you know it's a lovely breezy wi-...summer. 	
rob	So easily confused.	
imaan	Winter/summer somewhere in between. 	
rob	Now we know you're over here to do a show at The Fringe, we'll give you a chance to give that a big old plug a bit later on. Now you're rather young, just 22, Lebanese Australian, started your comedy career at 15 when you won a national competition called Class Clown on Triple J radio station. 	
imaan	Yes. 	
rob	Yes. So I've got everything right so far. The thing that I'm most intrigued about is that you have a syndrome which actually is named after...	
imaan	My sister. 	
rob	You have a disability named after your sister - this is amazing. So Rima Syndrome can you please explain this to us. 	
imaan	Yeah well Rima Syndrome it's a rare form of bone dysplasia and pretty much...	
rob	Whoa hang on, back up a bit - make that a little bit simpler for me. 	
imaan	It's like a rare form of dwarfism although it's not considered dwarfism because there's actually nothing inherently out of proportion with my body, I'm just short, everything works smoothly, I'm a very attractive man. 	
rob	So everything is in complete proportion, you're an absolutely functioning perfect human being who just happens to be three and a half feet tall. 	
imaan	Yes something like that. 	
rob	I don't know if you deserve to be on this show, Imaan, I don't know if you're quite disabled enough. Julie?	
julie	Well I was just wondering...	
rob	Shall we let him continue, I don't know? 	
julie	I don't know but I reckon your sister lords it over you does she? Ha ha the disability is in my name. 	
imaan	Yeah all the time. But yeah I mean there is that argument I'm not disabled enough but I'm about 95% able-bodied but 5% is I can't reach ATMs, automatic doors don't work for me. So you know I understand the disabled plight. 	
rob	Okay you've argued your way back into contention. So what about your sister then you are the only two people in the whole world to have this condition? 	
imaan	Yeah. 	
rob	Was she able to call it after herself?	
imaan	The doctor who was trying to figure out why my sister wasn't growing kind of just went, "Alright well we'll just call it the Rima Syndrome because we have no other explanation." So it was pretty much a bit of laziness as well. 	
julie	Imaan, tell me a little bit about your comedy and your style and you know the way you take it? 	
imaan	My style of comedy is very sort of personal, anecdotal I get asked a lot of weird questions being who I am and the best way for me to deal with that is to make them look like idiots. 	
julie	So what kind of weird questions do you get asked? I mean I've got a pretty good idea I get them often myself but you know.	
imaan	The one that always gets me is what disease do you have? Like you could actually catch short. Like if I sneezed on them they'd suddenly shrink. 	
julie	So you've got a show called 'A Little Perspective' is that right? 	
imaan	Yeah it's a pun. I'm a genius. It's a hidden camera show. I get asked a lot of these weird questions and a lot of my comedian friends didn't actually believe me. So I got a hidden camera and I put it in one of my hats and walked around the streets of Melbourne. 	
julie	Let's hear a clip. 
[Playing clip: You're so cute. 
I know. 
What's your name? 
Are you Human?
What do you think I am? 
You are so cute, sorry. 
What do you think I am if I'm not a human?
Oh my god I've never seen anyone like you. 
You are so cute. 
You're special. 
I'm special but not human.]

Imaan, you're so cute, man. 	
imaan	That cute, it always gets me. 	
rob	So, Imaan, I guess this is a little bit of payback for you after years of condescending comments like that? 	
imaan	Yeah well you know it's about time that people understood that it's not okay to be condescending. And I get condescended to by 12 year olds also and it's kind of a bit strange. Have some life experience before you come and talk to me. 	
rob	How do you stop the accumulative pressure of all these condescending comments for years on end? Are you finding yourself often in danger of becoming rather bitter and twisted about the world and the people around you? 	
imaan	Well yes and no. I mean the way I deal with it most of the time, it depends on my mood, but I mainly ignore it most of the time unless there's a camera rolling and then I juice it out a bit so it's more entertaining. 	
julie	So tell me about your show in Edinburgh then, describe it to me in detail? 	
imaan	It's like a hidden camera show it's got some stand-up in between all the clips, and it's about political correctness and how it's a great idea if it actually existed. But telling people what to say is not going to change how they think. So you never win. Political correctness only makes the ignorant comment longer.	
rob	But you do have this really good quote where you say if we can convert stupidity into renewable energy then the world's energy problems would be solved. 	
imaan	Yes that is a good quote. 	
rob	I know that's why I read it out. Go on please. 	
imaan	There is an element because you're never, ever run out of stupid comments ever, that is as long as there are humans on this planet that is always going to be there. 	
julie	Imaan, to be honest there are quite a lot of actors and comedians out there who are of small stature because it's all about laughing at and laughing with etc. Do you think that you would have a career within the media industry and in comedy if it wasn't for the fact that you are short? 	
imaan	Absolutely. I always think of myself I'm a comedian first, short second, Lebanese Australian third like whether I'm tall or short I would always do stand-up, it's a passion of mine that I just can't seem to get rid of, it's like a drug habit - every time I try and get rid of it it lures me back in. 	
julie	Have you ever done like at Christmas time and pantos, do you ever do the whole panto thing short thing in that context? 	
imaan	I did when I was young. I did a lot of weird stuff. But I don't like that side of the industry where the amount of work you get dressing up as a umpa-lumpa or as an elf or something to me it's quite degrading and it's also it borders on whoring your body out, there is no artistic integrity to it and I'm all about the integrity, you know, I want to be proud of the product, I want to be proud of the person that I am and I want to sleep at night not being an umpa-lumpa. 	
rob	Is this why you got into comedy then because you think there's a lack of opportunity in other realms or walks of life? 	
imaan	Not necessarily. We do live in an age where there's a lot of work to be had for disabled individuals. You can work on a desk, you can be creative in other ways without doing stand-up. 	
rob	And you can be an umpa-lumpa. 	
imaan	And you can be an umpa-lumpa. And I'm not here to bad mouth the people who are being umpa-lumpas but they need to realise that there is a lot more that they can do. It's just like whoring yourself out there is a sense of...a self esteem issue there where they don't think they can be anything better. 	
julie	Do you think what you do is more respectable? 	
imaan	I guess it's got, I wouldn't say respectable but there is more...it's more personal and it's me speaking my mind so whether you respect that or not it's up to you but it does have more of a clout of honesty and of expression.  	
rob	Have you had anyone accuse your work of being a bit mean?	
imaan	A little bit but it's stand-up comedy. The thing I can get away with is because I do have that sort of cute, cheeky demeanour I can get away with saying a lot more than the other comedians can. But yeah I mean being mean, a comedian told me this the other day - offence can only be taken, I cannot give you offence you can only take it that way. So if you feel like I'm being mean then maybe you've got to think...I'm not being mean on purpose maybe you've got to readjust the way you take it. 	
rob	And just because somebody's offended it doesn't mean they're right. I think that's a very important thing to point out as well. 	
imaan	Exactly. Being offended is an emotion; you can be happy, you can be sad, you can be offended. It doesn't give you the right to change people's views on things or change the way TV shows are made - you're offended change the channel. 	
julie	Have you had a positive reaction from the able-bodied community? 	
imaan	Yes I have. They do like the honesty that I portray. And I very rarely get disabled people into my audiences. I don't know why? 	
rob	Why is that? Why? 	
imaan	I think maybe I'm on a bit too late. 	
rob	This is a serious thing we've been talking about for years, there's lots of stay-up late programmes isn't there that at Ouch we've had people on about this issue, but trying to stay out as a disabled person when you're relying on carers and such like beyond 9:30 is a bit of a hassle. And if you're doing the midnight show that may well... Maybe you need to do a matinee. 	
imaan	Maybe. Or maybe like if they come I'll guarantee that they will party all through the night until it's time for the morning when they can get their carers to help them. 	
julie	What a great idea, I'm there. 	
rob	It's a great idea. 	
imaan	That's what Edinburgh Festival's all about staying out late. 	
rob	So far you've been getting a different reaction from wandering around Edinburgh than you have from wandering around Australian cities? 	
imaan	Yeah I do find...I have recently moved to the UK for this very reason that it doesn't bother a lot of people in the UK being different. Everyone is actually different in the UK and everyone keeps to themselves. I do love Australia it is my home country, but there is a sense of we are like the country town of the world. 	
julie	You're also Lebanese how does it fare for you when you go home to that side of the world? 	
imaan	Ah yeah in Lebanon it's crazy. There was a busy road just in Tripoli, where my father's from, and I was walking there last year and this guy ran through the traffic, like four lanes of busy traffic, just to stand in front of me and stare. And it was quite intense. But you can't really say much because he might have a gun so I just let him. 	
julie	Okay you can stare. 	
rob	Do you feel like you'd rather have a bit more anonymity, was there a phase of your life when you just wanted to stay indoors or have you always been a bit of an extrovert? 	
imaan	I've always been an extrovert and the reason why I've got into comedy is people are going to stare at me either way I might as well give them a reason to. 	
rob	And get paid for it.	
imaan	And get paid for it, exactly. I've been a smartass all my life and now I've got a paycheque for it. 	
julie	So tell us a bit more about where in Edinburgh, what time etc - promote the show. 	
imaan	Promote the show. I'm doing it at the Sportsman at the Gilded Balloon. It's on at midnight everyday of the festival except for the 14th. So if you guys have a bit of insomnia and you want to see a comedy show my show is the one to see. 	
rob	And don't you promote your ticket sales by wandering around with a huge megaphone?	
imaan	Yes that's one of my ways of corralling the masses to come to my show. 	
rob	Well may you continue to charm the people of Edinburgh and we wish you all the best of luck. And do you have a website address by the way?	
imaan	I do not but I do have a Facebook.com/imaanstandup so that's a good way to follow me. 	
rob	Thank you very much and best of luck with the show. 	
julie	Take care. 	
imaan	Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. 	
julie	Bye. 	
rob	And now... [fanfare] and with a striking lack of histrionic bombast we are at the end of the show. And being as this is a podcast we figured that basically hardly anyone makes it this far, it's like falling asleep in the cinema and waking up and they've already started the trailers for the next show. We've been busy asking you to write in if you're still listening at this point, it's a kind of nice and cosy sort of back street local boozer rather than a sort of chain nightclub situation. So we'd quite like to make friends with some of you - proper, proper listeners not the here today gone tomorrow Johnny Come Lately's who turn off after or sometimes during Paralympic news. Julie what's been coming in to the inbox this week? 	
julie	Well on the last show we received an email from a woman who likes to listen to our show whilst out running. And I think Liz suggested that it was a bit rich writing to a disability show to say this. Anyway the jogging listener, Maryanne, has written back again. 	
rob	Oh yeah go on, tell me what she said.	
julie	And she says, "Dear Ouch! I have just listened to your July podcast you read out the letter I wrote in your 'I'm still listening' section I'm writing now to apologise for coming across as smug. That was not my intention at all though listening back to your reading what I said I blathered on and on and on about running I can certainly see why you would think as much. Anyway, I was still listening at the end of your July show which I very much enjoyed, particularly the topic of holidays and the Headspace music." So, Rob, tell me was Liz joking or was she serious? 	
rob	Of course she was joking. She leads her entire life in a thrall of levity fuelled grandeur and comedy. She would never, ever be remotely nasty to any of our listeners...	
julie	And not only that. 	
rob	...we value both of them. James Tween from Preston in Lancashire wants to say he's still listening at the end, so gold star James, jolly good. He continues "I'm visually impaired and one of the big things I like about Ouch is that whilst some of the non disabled listeners are learning about disability issues so too we disabled listeners are learning more about each other. I know lots about visually impaired issues but much less about the problems encountered by wheelchair users, for example. Ouch is a source of unity and publicity within the disabled community and is an important part of the BBC's output." Now this just sounds a bit too much like somebody who works in-house using very strange BBC bureaucratic language, but anyway I'm going to take it as it is, and thanks very much James, I appreciate that. 	
julie	Either that or he could come here and get a job on Ouch. 	
rob	Um really? 	
julie	Maybe you never know. 	
rob	I don't know are we looking for anyone at the moment? 	
julie	I don't know. 	
rob	Are we hiring? 	
julie	Are we hiring I don't know but I tell you what though we have had Alan in Kentucky write to us. 	
rob	Kentucky, brilliant. 	
julie 	And he's still listening. Hello there and he tells us that he's been listening to our show for years and he's pointed disabled friends to us, in our general direction, he's able-bodied I believe, and I figure he says, "I figure it's only a matter of time until I'm not." Do you think he's old then? 	
rob	I don't know maybe just with an incredibly pessimistic outlook upon life. Come on you're living in Kentucky, go and have a look at those blue hills and those fried chicken, and I think Mohammed Ali's from Kentucky as well. So much to live for Alan! Anyway, Mini Mouse also wrote in, obviously other mice branded by toy manufacturers are available, Mini Mouse says, "I'm currently relocating from Dundee to Kilmarnock" how exciting that must be for you. "Podcast 87 kept me company on one of a number of hour long train journeys while decorating." I presume that means decorating at either end not actually a train carriage. Sorry being a bit pedantic. "I'm blind anyway" yes so let's really hope she wasn't decorating a train "and I've been listening to the podcast for a couple of years now, love the show and always, always listen to the end."	
Julie	So can I get this straight - can blind people decorate? 	
rob	Oh absolutely not in my experience.	
julie	But there's nothing stopping you with a paint brush in your hand and going up and down, left and right?	
rob	But how do you know where you're painting? 	
julie	That's true.	
rob	I'm visually impaired and I had a go at painting once and my landlord actually docked me extra rent. I said I'd do the kitchen ceiling for him and I did such a bad job he charged me extra rent to clean up the mess.	
julie	Ha-ha there is a moral in that story - if thy is blind don't decorate! 	
rob	Best also to say it in a sort of Last of the Summer Wine accent as well. 	
julie	Indeed darling, indeed.	
Rob	Because then it makes it sound like it's a phrase that's been around for generations. 	
julie	Generations darling. 	
rob	Generations. So I think we need to start by giving something back to our club members. I'm thinking you know they bother listening to the whole thing maybe they should get a say in what we do. So if you do have any ideas on subjects that we should discuss or people we should interview why don't you just go along right now and email ouch@bbc.co.uk with the words 'We are the Secret Editors' in the subject line. That includes you Maryanne, Alan, Mouse person and others. Perhaps you can update us also on what you're up to at the same time if we're really to be a proper warts and all members only strict door policy club. 	
julie	And Rob don't you think we should say a big thank you to the team. 	
rob	Not particularly. 	
julie	Not particularly well I'm gonna. 	
rob	But it's obligatory so we will. 	
julie	I'm going to say thank you to Emma Tracey, to our studio manager, Jo Langton and of course the esteemed producer, Damon Rose. 	
rob	And we're back just before the games with a special show looking at Paralympics past and getting more insight into the London 2012 event too. The opening ceremony guess what it is so close now, it's on Wednesday 29th August so for all the sporting build-up look in the BBC Disability sport website which is, rather intuitively, at bbc.co.uk/disabilitysports. And rather reticently we should also point out that if you want to actually watch the Paralympics on the TV you need to go to Channel 4. All links we mention on the show today will be on Ouch's blog, the address of which you really should know by now. 	
julie	So look now moving past sport have you heard any scary loud noises recently because we're play--... 	
rob	Yes but I put that down to Damon's guide dog. 	
julie	Ah no that's smelly noises. 	
rob	That's true.	
julie	We're playing out with the music from learning disabled artist Jez Colborne. If you pop into London during the Paralympic times you can see him as part of the Arty London 2012 Festival outside the National Theatre from the 5th to the 8th September. 	
rob	Jez used to be afraid of warning sirens but he now finds them fascinating. That's lovely. He uses 21 different sirens in his set. The track we're going to hear explains his new found love - here's 'Sound of the Sirens'. Goodbye. 	
julie	Goodbye. 
[Playing music]